The Trump administration’s actions in Minnesota are testing the bounds of immigration enforcement.
With the nation’s eyes on the ICE agents unleashed in Minneapolis and the chaos and bloodshed that have followed, Vital City turned to Jeh Johnson for sane answers on federal immigration enforcement.
Johnson served as secretary of Homeland Security from 2013 to 2017, overseeing Immigration and Customs Enforcement during the Obama administration. He has close ties to New York City where, earlier in his career, he served in the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York. He’s no immigration dove: Under his watch, DHS pursued aggressive border enforcement and pushed cities to transfer undocumented individuals from local jails directly to ICE custody. But Johnson is now watching the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown with alarm — particularly the deployment of thousands of masked, battle-armed federal agents to Minneapolis and other cities in what he describes as an apparent strategy to “prey on local immigrant communities.”
With New York potentially on the administration’s list for an enforcement surge, Vital City spoke with Johnson about what it might mean for local law enforcement, why he thinks ICE may need a “major rebranding” and what advice he’d give Mayor Zohran Mamdani as the city navigates an increasingly volatile standoff with Washington.
Vital City: The Trump administration has significantly altered the composition and mission of federal law enforcement, investing resources in a ramp-up of the ICE budget that now dwarfs other federal law enforcement offices, such as the FBI and DEA. At the same time, news reports note that FBI, DEA and other agents are being detailed to assist in ICE operations. What do you make of the massive infusion of dollars to increase ICE’s manpower? What does it mean structurally for the balance of federal interests, how does it affect training, mission and deployment?
Jeh Johnson: Without a doubt, President Trump campaigned on securing the border and immigration law enforcement. The bumper sticker was “mass deportation,” but the more subtle message was prioritizing deporting “the worst of the worst.”
Securing the border and deporting “the worst of the worst” undocumented are two legitimate government objectives. Indeed, those were my objectives. To that end, while I was in office, we saw some of the lowest levels of illegal border crossings in years and worked with city governments through our Priority Enforcement Program to encourage them to transfer those undocumented released from jail directly to ICE custody for deportation.
The current administration seems to have gone far beyond this mandate. ICE has reportedly set arbitrary numeric goals for arrests, without regard to prioritizing public safety. To the contrary, given the manner in which the current administration is pursuing the immigration mission, ICE is reviled in the very communities in which it must operate and the sanctuary city movement is turbocharged, to the detriment of public safety.
As we speak, DHS [the Department of Homeland Security] has surged thousands of law enforcement personnel to Minneapolis and St. Paul though there has been no recent, great surge of illegal immigration into that area. I watch the videos of DHS personnel, masked and in menacing warfighting gear, and they appear to be looking for a fight with the local civilian population. ICE is now reportedly moving on to Portland, Maine. From all appearances, the strategy seems to be to go from city to city to prey on the local immigrant communities there. It is hard to believe this is America.
I also worry about the surge in recruitment of personnel to the sensitive immigration law enforcement mission. Across law enforcement, personnel need to be well-trained in tactics of de-escalation, so that a confrontation does not escalate into a loss of life. Renee Good did not have to die over the manner in which she blocked the street with her car. The confrontation that led to George Floyd’s death started over a counterfeit $20 bill. New Yorkers will remember that Eric Garner died by chokehold in 2014 over allegations he’d been selling loose cigarettes.
I also worry about the character of the people we are recruiting to the ICE mission. DHS personnel should look like America. The recruitment message “defend your culture,” which was at one point on the ICE website, is a dog whistle. America is a multicultural society. If you are a Mexican American in South Texas interested in law enforcement, that message says in effect “you need not apply.” If you are a Muslim American in Minnesota or Michigan interested in law enforcement, that message says in effect, “you need not apply.”
Vital City: DHS was controversial when it was created in 2002 because it was such a massive agency and covered such a wide range of topics. How do you think it has worked out? Given the changing shape of the ICE mission and understanding that each administration will have its priorities, are there issues that it would be wise for the federal agencies to safeguard against, no matter what the administration? What changes might you suggest?
Jeh Johnson: In the wake of 9/11, DHS was established primarily for the counterterrorism mission. Up until then, the United States did not believe we needed a “Ministry of the Interior” to address domestic security because we were separated from most of the rest of the world by two oceans. That assumption collapsed on 9/11. The thinking then was that terrorism was an extraterritorial threat, therefore we must consolidate into one cabinet-level department the regulation of all the different ways someone can enter our country — land, sea and air. Therefore, CBP (Customs and Border Protection), ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement), TSA (the Transportation Security Administration) and the Coast Guard were all merged into one department. People wonder why the Secret Service, FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) and the cybersecurity mission were given to DHS as well. Like everything in Washington, DHS was a political compromise. In some respects we went too far in its creation and in other respects we didn’t go far enough.
As the character of the terrorist threat to the homeland has changed — it’s now largely domestic-based, falling to the FBI to address — and immigration has become a political red-meat issue, DHS’s primary mission has become immigration law enforcement.
While I was in office, people used to approach me and say, “thank you for keeping us safe.” Now, DHS is known primarily as DOD — the “Department of Deportation.” Whether a Democratic or Republican administration, the secretary’s time and effort is overwhelmingly on the politically volatile mission of immigration.
The DHS model is now outdated for its original purpose. If I were king — and I’m not — I would start from scratch and create a large “Department of Public Safety” into which we place every federal law enforcement and security agency, including immigration, TSA and cybersecurity, deconflict all their missions, and leave all the prosecutors and civil litigators in Department of Justice. But this will never happen for multiple reasons and the FBI would fight mightily to stay in DOJ, where it enjoys relative autonomy.
Vital City: There have been increasing concerns about the conduct and reach of ICE operations, up to and including abolishing ICE. Some of this has to do with what appears to be an extraordinary failure to follow basic tenets of constitutional policing, failures that have attracted the attention and condemnation of local law enforcement. What is your view?
Jeh Johnson: I am opposed to the outright elimination of ICE, though it is becoming so toxic in communities across the country it may require a major rebranding. If you were opposed to the Vietnam War in the 1960s-70s, the answer was not the elimination of the Department of Defense. We need an agency to enforce the immigration laws. If we don’t like the way the agency is doing that, we change the policy. If the leaders who promulgate the policy don’t change it, we change the leaders. That’s what elections are for.
Vital City: ICE and the NYPD sometimes work together — but in other respects, federal law enforcement is at odds with or complicates the work of local cops. Can you talk about that tension and how you think it ought to be resolved?
Jeh Johnson: High-profile confrontations like Minneapolis complicate the relationship in a way that is contrary to overall public safety. If ICE is toxic in a community like New York, the Mayor, the city council and even the police commissioner don’t want the local police drawn into the toxicity. I encountered this with various sanctuary city laws and policies when I was secretary. I had to negotiate city-by-city with the mayor to arrive at a solution that worked for both of us. Simply storming a community with thousands of DHS law enforcement personnel unfamiliar with that community is not the answer. No responsible public official can want what is happening in Minneapolis right now.
Vital City: The videos shared each day of ICE encounters with residents, as well as statements from DHS and ICE officials — even before the deaths of Good and Pretti — show apparent violations of law with respect to stops, detention and uses of force, as well as other troubling behavior such as the wearing of masks and the use of highly militarized equipment, from tear gas canisters to tank-like vehicles. What is your view of these abuses of power? If you were secretary, what would you do to address them?
Jeh Johnson: There is a legitimate concern about appearing to overmilitarize domestic law enforcement. We had this very concern in the Obama administration in providing federal grants to local law enforcement for public safety. It can inflame the local civilian population. We see that playing out in real time right now in Minneapolis.
Masks add to that toxic dynamic. Masks are not typical among local law enforcement, even in big cities with a crime problem. The NYPD do not wear masks, even when operating in dangerous neighborhoods. Masks detract from accountability. Whether on the federal, state or local level, law enforcement must always be accountable to the public they serve. Masks also increase the risk of impersonation by those not in law enforcement.
Vital City: What is your view of the appropriate role, either for local prosecutors or for the USDOJ Civil Rights division, or any other accountability mechanism, in a situation such as the shooting of Renee Good by an ICE agent?
Jeh Johnson: As a federal prosecutor in 1991, I once prosecuted a federal law enforcement officer for criminal civil rights violations. In 1992, I defended pro bono a New York City police officer accused of a homicide. Following an extensive grand jury investigation by the Manhattan DA, no charges were brought against the officer, who went on to be a hero on 9/11.
Many law enforcement agencies require an investigation where there is a civilian death involving a law enforcement officer, even though no charges are ever brought. It lends to accountability and helps remove any suspicion of a cover-up. It is also true that, in general, no agency can investigate itself, except where there is a truly independent inspector general. If an IG [Inspector General] identifies a problem, the matter should then be referred to the Department of Justice.
Federal agents have limited (not absolute) immunity from local prosecutions for conduct while on the job. But including local law enforcement in any investigation, and appointing local prosecutors as special assistant U.S. attorneys, can lend to credibility and accountability. It is also true that local law enforcement likely knows the community better, and can provide leads and access to evidence that the feds cannot reach.
Arising out of the death of Renee Good, DOJ has threatened investigations of the governor and mayor, but there would appear to be no investigation of the shooting itself. Seems odd.
Vital CIty: How do you think ICE activity, and the manner in which it is carried out, affects the legitimacy of local law enforcement and the willingness — in this case, of New Yorkers — to obey law enforcement commands and to otherwise cooperate. And relatedly, what kind of position does this put NYPD and other local police departments in? They may be called to a location to ensure ICE can execute on its lawful mission, while at the same time mediating with protestors/residents who may be angry at the role that PD is playing.
Jeh Johnson: When I was secretary of DHS, I used to counsel ICE leadership, Tom Homan included, that one notorious incident in a community — the arrest of somebody’s grandmother on the church steps or a high school student leaving class — can create a local uproar, turn us into pariahs, embolden the sanctuary city movement and completely undermine our ability to pursue our mission in that community. We see that exact scenario playing out now in Minneapolis, on steroids. In the current environment, the arrest of a single individual by ICE likely requires far more officers and equipment on the scene than it normally would, drawing people and resources away from other public safety missions. I suspect this dynamic is not now limited to Minneapolis.
Vital City: What, realistically, could New York City do if the Trump administration insists on a Minneapolis-style confrontation?
Jeh Johnson: New York City is unique. It is too large a city, with the largest police department in America. Even those who seem itching for a fight hopefully know better than to take on New York and New Yorkers. The New York City equivalent of the current federal presence in Minneapolis would deplete all of DHS nationwide.
Vital City: If you could advise Mayor Mamdani on New York City’s posture vis-a-vis immigration and the feds, what would you tell him?
Jeh Johnson: This is not an opportunity to take a stand. Lay low. Don’t provoke a fight politically. Focus on snow clean-up.